From freezes to...well.. There's always excitement.. and deletions!

[Gossip] Nyv: hi
[Gossip] Marukai: hello
[Gossip] Vendeta: hi
[Gossip] Nyv: Nyvly is still frozen
[Gossip] Nyv: i hope i can be unfrozen
[Gossip] Nashtok: "still"?
[Gossip] Nyv: yeah thats right
[Gossip] Nyv: still
[Gossip] Nyv: like i cant even repair my equipment
[Gossip] Nyv: its tragic
[Gossip] Nashtok: it is

With a sharp twist of space, Nashtok has transferred you!

Nashtok says 'hey'
You say 'hi'
Nashtok says 'i wanted to talk to you'
Nashtok says 'but you seem to be always afk'
You say 'ok'
You say 'yes my life is crazy busy atm'
You say 'i'm not always on my computer'
Nashtok nods.
Nashtok says 'so, first, a question'
You say 'shoot'
Nashtok says 'people all have different views on copyright'
Nashtok says 'what is your view on it?'
You say 'hrm, i'm not sure'
You say 'well i have ideas i guess'
You say 'haven't really thought about it'
Nashtok says 'good, bad?'
Nashtok says 'respect it, don't respect it?'
Nashtok says 'believe it's wrong? or does it protect, or what'
Nashtok says 'don't care?'

You say 'well if its regarding blackbook, i dont think guides /walkthroughs are necessarily infrigment'
Nashtok says 'that's not what i said'
Nashtok says 'i'm just wondering about your opinion on the subject'

You say 'well, hrm. so like lets say i right a book like john grisham'
You say 'write* lol'
Nashtok nods.
You say 'soryr i'm exhausted'

You say 'so i write a book, a novel, like grisham'
You say 'and its spectacular'
You say 'and i even have it published'

Nashtok makes a strange magical gesture.
Nashtok has created a raven-engraved, silver belt!

You say 'and one step further i make money off of it'
You say 'wonderful'
Nashtok nods.

You say 'of course, its copyrighted its my right to distribute copies of that book'
You say 'but then'
You say 'it also happens that my book is complicated'
You say 'and hard for the layperson to understand, like the legal jargon'
You say 'so come along "CLIFF NOTES" for grishams book'
You say 'well, cliff notes does not spell out the book'
You say 'but it explains the characters'

Nashtok says 'so uh'
Nashtok says 'back up'
Nashtok says 'about copyright itself'
Nashtok says 'your copyright in the book'
Nashtok says 'you accept/respect that?'
Nashtok says 'or?'

You say 'well i would think so, yes, though, '
You say 'i have to admit'
Nashtok nods.
You say 'i use a version of zmud that someone gave to me'
You say 'OOPS'
You say 'and it unfortuantely may have violated some copyright'

Nashtok says 'so, i am not pushing copyright in itself, per se, as a legal concept'
Nashtok says 'but i am interested in your thoughts and perspective on it'
Nashtok says 'and i believe there is some element of truth, in the least'
Nashtok says 'that should be widely accepted'
Nashtok says 'and it relates to respecting authors and their work'

You say 'well there are different levels of copyright'

Nashtok says 'whether or not one agrees specifically with copyright as a legal concept'
Nashtok says 'or even cares about it at all'
Nashtok says 'so, as far as age of chaos goes'
Nashtok says 'there is a great deal of material'

You say 'i think regarding the current copy of zmud i'm using, well one could argue i'm not respecting the zmud author's copyright'

Nashtok says 'and you see copyright notices'
Nashtok says 'i am not responsible for those - i am merely pointing them out'

You say 'well there are many WoT role playing things'
You say 'actually another age of chaos game'
You say 'if i'm not mistaken'

You say 'but i would argue'
You say 'and go so far to say i respect, at least, the aoc source code, that functions as a mud'

Nashtok says 'apart from copyright in itself, you, and i, should respect the authors of the material that makes up the age of chaos'
Nashtok says 'do you agree?'

You say 'i do not agree'
You say 'because the material is a direct derivative in many aspects from the WoT'
Nashtok says 'oh, no, not at all'
Nashtok says 'look at azakhet's zones'
Nashtok says 'ignoring the few things like relabelling non-wot zones'
Nashtok says 'look at the majority of his zones'
Nashtok says 'what do they have to do with wot?'
Nashtok says 'nothing'

You say 'oh well of course, i think if i were to start a new mud'
You say 'so to take his zone code and stick it in a mud would be a violation of copyright'

Nashtok says 'what does trials of the witch-king have to do with the wheel of time?'
You say 'hrm, i havent read all the WoT books but i will take your word for it'
Nashtok says 'azakhet's zones are completely original to him'

You say 'sure, dont copy his zone'
You say 'now can i draw a map showing directions thru his zone?'
You say 'absolutely'

Nashtok says 'except the zones that are obviously wheel of time towns, and i don't remember which ones azakhet wrote of those, if any'
Nashtok says 'but not only azakhet, but all the other zones of the mud as well'
Nashtok says 'by various authors'


You say 'K...?'
Nashtok says 'even the wot-themed ones are only wot-themed - the content is original'
Nashtok says 'whether you look at it as about copyright in itself or simply about respecting an author's work, it is something to consider'

Nashtok says 'if you do not care about copyright then you still need to respect people and their work'
You say 'hrm it is an opinion'

Nashtok says 'now, as for your site'
Nashtok says 'you have a link to material that is without question a direct violation both of respect and of copyright'
Nashtok says 'whichever of those you care about, you should care'

You say 'well i dont think my trials map is a violation of copyright'
You say 'i have seen numerous reiterations of it (poorly drawn) after i made mine'

Nashtok says 'let's focus on the most obvious violation right now'
Nashtok says 'that's the equipment database'
Nashtok says 'hands down, no doubt about it'

You say 'well i'm not so sure'
You say 'i mean, i have my own database that i've compiled over the years'

Nashtok says 'the data were blatantly copied and the proof is clear'
Nashtok says 'right'
You say 'though not as thorough as alkara's'
Nashtok says 'well, look at this way'

You say 'well so what if someone knows the stats of an item'
You say 'it shows up on auction'
You say 'so what if it says where it loads... people can auction, then publicly gossip, who loads that and its public'

Nashtok says 'if you collect your own database of ids and publish it, that could even be argued to be a violation, for various reasons, because it's all aoc content'
Nashtok says 'but let's speak specifically of "alkara's" database'
Nashtok says 'it was unquestionably copied in violation of trust'

You say 'have you talked to alkara?'
Nashtok says 'he did not collect those data as a normal mortal by identifying items'
Nashtok says 'you can tell that he did not'
Nashtok says 'no, i have not seen him on here for years'

You say 'well i even have some of eglin's old database'
You say 'there's so much overlap'

Nashtok says 'but i hold you somewhat responsible if you promote his site'

You roll your eyes in disgust.
You say 'you jest'
Nashtok shakes his head.

You say 'well sir Lord Nashtok'
Nashtok says 'you know where he got it'
Nashtok says 'don't you?'
You say 'this is a conundrum because his site is kind of already public record'

You say 'i totally see your issue with quests'
You say 'i think we've talked about it before'
Nashtok says 'the fact that something is already published does not mean it's not a violation to keep publishing it'
Nashtok says 'alkara and you could actually be sued in court if the actual copyright holders decided to pursue it'

Nashtok says 'alkara without a doubt'
You say 'but i've briefly used it only a few times, and i havent found anything to really cause harm to the mud'

Nashtok says 'beyond that legal stuff'
Nashtok says 'it's disrespectful'
Nashtok says 'i'm not here to make a legal case'
Nashtok says 'what he did was and is unethical'

You say 'well i'm not sure its so disrespectful. maybe disrepectful if he used unauthorized access to get the info'

Nashtok says 'participating in it is also unethical'
You say 'i disagree'

Nashtok says 'and THAT is what he did'
Nashtok says 'he used deceitful means to get the information and publish it'

You say 'you know i'm a proponent of walkthroughs'
You say 'walkthroughs were made starting back with nintendo power'
Nashtok says 'we're not talking about walkthroughs right now'
Nashtok says 'we're talking about directly publishing data that are directly copied from the mud'
Nashtok says 'i'm pursuing this because it's bad for the game and also because what alkara did was disrespectful, unethical, and wrong'


You say 'i just googled the phrase "age of chaos alkara"'
You say 'the link is like 4 from the top'
Nashtok nods.
You say 'i see where you're upset he got your code'
You say 'or whatever the database code came from'
You say 'i dont even know what all it means'
You say 'the Vnum'
You say 'or whatever'


You say 'but honestly, i play aoc and i dont even use the db that much'
Nashtok says 'that changes nothing'
You say 'I think the biggest thing'
You say 'should be attracting new players'
You say 'which i've always been about'
Nashtok says 'you're not going to divert from the subject at hand'
You say 'snicker, i'm so tired'
You say 'i'm so tired'
Nashtok says 'though i have to go afk for awhile'
You say 'i have to be up early, honestly'
Nashtok says 'we can continue discussing this later'

say we will continue the discussion, at this time though i dont think we have a serious copyright violation issue

You try, but the mind-numbing cold prevents you...

One moment please...
[Gossip] Nyvla: so nashtok you're gonna freeze all my chars?
[Gossip] Sec: why were your chars frozen nyv
[Gossip] Nyvla: nyvly now nyv?
[Gossip] Nashtok: nod nyvla
[Gossip] Sec: why are you freezing her chars
[Gossip] Nashtok: we can talk about unfreezing them later
[Gossip] Nashtok: violation of ethics
[Gossip] Sec: with aoc blackbook?
[Gossip] Nashtok: copyright violation also, if you care about that
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: thats hardcore
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: you guys are too hardcore for me
[Gossip] Sec: eh, with the aoc database...or aoc blackbook?
[Gossip] Nashtok: alkara used deceit means to gain access to data he should not have had and publish it
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: im gonna take my straight edge self to bed
[Gossip] Nashtok: alkara is not here to take responsibility for that, but nyv has associated herself with his site
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: this is too big brother for me
[Gossip] Nashtok: it's bad for the game and the actions taken to produce that database were unethical and unacceptable
[Gossip] Nashtok: the continuing operation of it is unacceptable and unethical as well
[Gossip] Sec: disagree
[Gossip] Sec: if anything it helps the mud
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: but, im generally against the system
[Gossip] Nashtok: you can disagree all you want sec
[Gossip] Sec: so you want people to get frustrated and quit
[Gossip] Sec: got it
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: what matters is what nyv and nashtok say
[Gossip] Nashtok: go ahead and quit sec
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: i agree with both
[Gossip] Sec: everyone will quit if they cant find directions to anywhere
[Gossip] Nashtok: quit all you want
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: nyv is just propogating information which i like
[Gossip] Sec: sorry but youre making a poor choice here nashtok
[Gossip] Sec: its a mud resource, many muds have them
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: nash i just stopping stuff from being easy
[Gossip] Sec: dont be stupid nashtok
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: which i can understand
[Gossip] Sec: if people get frustrated and quit the mud dies
[Gossip] the wraith Cadmus: lets call it a wash
[Gossip] Nashtok: sec
[Gossip] Sec: all will be for nothing without the people
[Gossip] Sec: you want to be on a mud with 0 people all because your panties are in a wad?
[Gossip] Nashtok: stop talking nonsense
[Gossip] Nashtok: i'm not here to discuss lists of directions
[Gossip] Brevik: can we all calmdownplz?
[Gossip] Nashtok: mute sec
[Gossip] Nashtok: haha
[Info] : Sec Dahk has been DELETED by Nashtok!

[Gossip] Nezorces: cunt
[Gossip] Nezorces: enjoy
[Info] : Nezorces has been DELETED by Nashtok!

[Gossip] Nashtok: that one stays

[Gossip] Xaitou: bitch ass ho
[Info] : Xaitou has been DELETED by Nashtok!
[Info] : Secrozen has been DELETED by Nashtok!

[Gossip] Avenmor: suck it reaaaall good
[Info] : Avenmor Ark has been DELETED by Nashtok!
[Info] : Avenmoria Racer has been DELETED by Nashtok!
[Gossip] Nashtok: haha

[Info] : Secro has been DELETED by Nashtok!
[Gossip] Nashtok: i guess he wanted that

[Info] : Secrozen has been DELETED by Nashtok!
[Info] : Caranth has gained a level!
[Info] : Aven has been DELETED by Nashtok!